Steve Bannon: Trump will have a third term

Key Concepts

• Populist Nationalism: A political ideology that emphasizes the common people and their interests against perceived elites and foreign influences.
• Corporatism: An economic system where businesses and government work closely together, often to the detriment of the working class.
• Fourth Turning: A cyclical theory of history suggesting periods of societal upheaval and transformation.
• Anti-fragile: A concept describing systems that benefit from shocks and volatility.
• MAGA Movement: The political movement associated with Donald Trump's presidency and agenda.
• Divine Providence: The belief that events are guided by a higher power.
• Non-interventionism: A foreign policy stance advocating for minimal involvement in international conflicts.
• Brexit: The United Kingdom's withdrawal from the European Union.

The Vision for America and the "MAGA Revolution"

Steve Bannon outlines a vision for America centered on the "little guy," the working and middle classes, who he believes are the foundation of the nation. He argues that the current system is not true capitalism but "corporatism," which needs to be broken to allow ordinary citizens to thrive. The ultimate goal of the "MAGA revolution" is to reclaim control of institutions and the political process, putting citizens first and creating an "entrepreneurial capitalism paradise for average people." Bannon asserts that this movement is "winning" and will not back down until this vision is realized.

The "War" Metaphor and the Urgency of the Moment

Bannon frequently employs the metaphor of "war" to describe the current political and societal landscape. He rejects the idea of calming things down, arguing that such an approach would be ineffective against the perceived threats. Instead, he believes in warning people about the risks, including "financial Armageddon," and rallying them to action. He likens the current era to a "revolutionary time" driven by technological, geopolitical, and financial shifts. Bannon posits that the strength of the populist nationalist MAGA movement lies in its "anti-fragile" nature, capable of withstanding pressure and adversity. He states, "We're never going to apologize. All we care about is victory gets victory against victory. And we know that we're ascended and they're in decline."

Navigating Crisis: Evolution vs. Revolution and Institutional Seizure

When questioned about whether his approach accelerates conflict or seeks to stop it, Bannon clarifies that his aim is to avoid "actual civil conflict" by strengthening the populist nationalist movement. He advocates for a "maximalist strategy with a sense of urgency" to "seize the institutions." This includes efforts like redistricting fights to create "permanently defendable" positions for the MAGA movement. He believes this strategy will force the opposing party to adjust and win elections, thereby internalizing the conflict. Bannon cites figures like Russ Vote as proponents of this plan, emphasizing the need to "strike and we must strike now."

The Age of Trump and the 2028 Presidency

Bannon declares that this is "the age of Trump," asserting that Trump has "totally redefined politics and power in America" by embodying populist nationalism at a critical juncture. He confidently states that Donald Trump "is going to be president in 28" and that people should "get accommodated with that." When challenged on the 22nd Amendment, Bannon suggests there are "many different alternatives" and a plan will be revealed at the appropriate time. He views Trump as a "vehicle of divine providence" and an "instrument" necessary to "finish what we started" and "save our country." He believes Trump possesses "more moral courage than any political person we've had, I believe, since Abraham Lincoln" and compares his leadership to that of Moses.

Constitutional Interpretation and the Spirit of the Amendment

The discussion touches upon the potential conflict between Trump's pursuit of a third term and the 22nd Amendment. Bannon suggests that the "will of the American people" embodies the Constitution and that if they elect Trump, it will be in accordance with that will. He dismisses the idea that this would be tearing up the Constitution or leading to a "quasi dictatorship," arguing that Trump's presidency is characterized by constant negotiation and compromise. He contrasts this with the interviewer's perception of a need to "smash the other side," asserting that Trump's path to office is through the "will of the American people."

Populist Nationalism vs. Globalism and International Engagement

Bannon clarifies his stance on internationalism, distinguishing between "populist globalists" and his own "non-interventionist" approach. He states that while he is not isolationist and believes in "direct engagement with the Chinese Communist Party," he opposes intervention in conflicts like those in Ukraine or the Middle East. He draws a parallel to the European populist movement, referencing Nigel Farage and the origins of Brexit discussions. He expresses enthusiasm for the progress of populist movements across Europe, citing examples in Italy, France, Germany, and Britain, and predicting future leadership roles for figures like Farage and Le Pen. He believes these movements are fighting a "common fight" against concentrated power and wealth.

The European Populist Movement and its Momentum

Bannon provides a "scorecard" of sorts for European populist parties, expressing confidence in Nigel Farage becoming Prime Minister of the UK, stating the Reform party is larger than both the Tory and Labour parties. He anticipates similar success for Marine Le Pen in France. He highlights the challenges faced by these movements, including "state media suppression" and concentrated power, yet emphasizes their growing momentum. He encourages supporters to remain focused, understand they are not alone, and remain "anti-fragile" by not quitting, believing that persistence will lead to the surrender of their opponents. He notes that Nigel Farage's stance on mass deportations indicates a shift towards the "right that you actually need to be to fix the problems."

Conclusion and Synthesis

The conversation reveals Steve Bannon's deeply held belief in a populist nationalist revolution to fundamentally reshape America. He views the current moment as a critical juncture, akin to a "war," requiring aggressive action to reclaim institutions and empower the working class. His vision for America is one of entrepreneurial capitalism for ordinary citizens, achieved through the leadership of Donald Trump, whom he sees as a divinely appointed instrument. Bannon advocates for a strategy of seizing power and purging opposition, while simultaneously asserting that this will ultimately be achieved through the will of the people and constitutional mechanisms. He also draws parallels to and expresses support for similar populist movements gaining traction across Europe, seeing them as part of a global struggle against established elites. The interview concludes with the interviewer acknowledging a better understanding of Bannon's objectives, despite fundamental disagreements.