Jon M Chu on Ariana Grande, Cynthia Erivo & making Wicked - The Arts Hour podcast, BBC World Service

Key Concepts

• Intentionality in Filmmaking: The core idea that a film's starting point should be "why me?" and "why now?" rather than solely focusing on spectacle.
• Emotional Accessibility in Mythical Worlds: Jon M. Chu's approach to creating films that are visually grand yet deeply relatable on an emotional level.
• Themes of Change, Dignity, and Identity: Central thematic explorations within the Wicked films, particularly relevant during the COVID-19 lockdown.
• Friendship as a Complex Dynamic: Portraying friendships not as perfect fairy tales but as inconsistent, requiring sacrifice and forgiveness.
• Collaborative Storytelling: The integration of all departments (costumes, production design, cinematography, music) to convey emotional states and narrative.
• Music as Internal Voice: Utilizing songs not just for performance but as a means to access and express a character's inner thoughts and struggles.
• Nuanced Sound Design and Mixing: The deliberate use of audio techniques to enhance emotional impact, such as subtle shifts in vocal resonance and ambient sound.
• Visual Storytelling through Color and Detail: The strategic use of color palettes, specific hues, and even physical details (like confetti or a crooked door) to communicate narrative and emotion.
• "Spectacle with Soul": A descriptor for Chu's filmmaking style, emphasizing grand visuals paired with profound emotional depth.
• Human Error and Instinct in Filmmaking: The value of embracing spontaneous moments and human imperfections to create authentic and resonant cinematic experiences.

Main Topics and Key Points

1. The Genesis of Wicked Films: Intent and Timing

• Starting Point: Jon M. Chu emphasizes that his starting point for the Wicked films was not spectacle, but "intention" – asking "why me?" and "why now?" for this project.
• Personal Connection: Chu's upbringing, including his parents immigrating from Taiwan and China and their connection to the "American dream," provided a personal resonance with the themes of The Wizard of Oz.
• Timeliness of Themes: The concept of "change and dignity" and "finding out who you are when you know the truth" became particularly relevant during the COVID-19 lockdown, a period of global uncertainty and personal introspection. Chu found these themes echoed in the musical's lyrics.

2. Excavating Themes: Identity, Friendship, and Morality

• Discovery of Core Themes: Chu describes the process of identifying the central theme for the movie, acknowledging that the material offers many possibilities.
• Focus on Friendship: A key starting point for Chu was the complex nature of friendships, which are often inconsistent and require sacrifice and forgiveness, rather than being a simple fairy tale.
• Character Dignity and Identity:
  • Elphaba (Cynthia Erivo): Erivo brought "dignity" to Elphaba, ensuring she was a fully formed human being and not just a comedic figure. This included considerations for her appearance, such as having jewelry and varied outfits, to convey self-respect.
  • Glinda (Ariana Grande): Grande, portraying a globally popular figure, found her own identity in real-time while embodying a character who must navigate her own "popular bubble" and discover her identity within it.
• Narrative Arc Across Two Films:
  • Movie One: Explores the "fairy tale side" of the story.
  • Movie Two: Delves into what happens when the fairy tale shatters and what remains, posing a challenge to the audience about their own power and choices after knowing the truth.

3. The "War Room" Methodology: Collaborative Visual Storytelling

• Simultaneous Production: Both Wicked films were shot and edited concurrently, treated as one continuous story.
• The "War Room": A central space where images, costumes, and colors were displayed, with specific emotional words (e.g., yearning, courage, resentment, betrayal) assigned to different sections.
• Departmental Collaboration: Heads of departments (costumes, production design, cinematography, choreography, camera) would enter the war room to discuss how to visually represent these emotions.
• Example: Resentment: The discussion involved how costumes could convey a "prickly spine" within a "soft world," with production design contributing to the soft world and costumes to the prickly shapes.
• Visuals as Storytelling: Chu reiterates that the visual elements are integral to the storytelling, not separate from it.

4. Music as an Emotional Conduit

• Internal Voice: The music in Wicked is designed to get closer to the characters and serve as their internal voice, a unique capability of cinema.
• Emotional Impact: Chu observed audiences crying and laughing during screenings, highlighting the profound emotional connection facilitated by the singing.
• Singing from the Heart: When hiring actors like Cynthia Erivo and Ariana Grande, the singing is not treated as a technical exercise but as an emergence from their emotional core, allowing Chu to focus on the character's struggles.
• Example: "Couldn't Be Happier" / "For Good": The scene where Glinda sings publicly about happiness while feeling crushed by the system and guilty. The camera pushes in, and the audience understands her internal conflict.
• Nuanced Sound Mixing: The sound mix for this scene involved a subtle transition from a public microphone resonance to a more internal vocal quality, a deliberate choice to enhance the audience's perception of her struggle. This was a collaborative effort with mixer Andy Nelson.

5. Technical Craftsmanship and Emotional Resonance

• Visual Spotlight without a Spotlight: To intensify a moment without a literal spotlight (which wouldn't work in daylight), confetti was used and frozen in time as Elphaba began to sing, creating a visual emphasis.
• Actor Commitment: Chu highlights the deep commitment of Erivo and Grande to their roles, their craft, and the film.
• Casting for Emotional Availability: Chu casts actors who are emotionally available and willing to open up, enabling the exploration of "dark places" and complex human experiences.
• Physical Expression of Emotion: Chu's films often find an "emotional language physically."
• The Concept of Dignity: This was a key discovery, particularly brought by Cynthia Erivo, who advocated for Elphaba to have dignity through her appearance (jewelry, varied outfits) to be a character audiences could root for. Ariana Grande also sought to portray Glinda's internal struggle beyond just being "the girl in the bubble."
• Filmmaker's Personal Growth: Chu reflects that the five-plus years on Wicked helped him overcome self-doubt and reaffirm his place as a filmmaker, focusing on the work itself.

6. Personal Influences and the "Spectacle with Soul" Philosophy

• Immigrant Experience and Media: Chu's parents, immigrants from Taiwan, fostered a love for media and the arts, exposing him to music, dance, and television shows.
• Early Musical Influences: His mother played guitar, grandparents played piano, and they attended shows. He was named after characters from TV shows (Hart to Hart) and inspired by musicals like George M.
• Music as a Bridge: Music served as a way to bridge language gaps and understand emotions within his family.
• "Spectacle with Soul": Chu finds this phrase interesting. He views cinema as a "cathedral of ideas" where he has the audience's attention. His responsibility is to offer escapism and the possibility of dreaming bigger, while also bringing the audience back home through emotional connection and relatable human experiences.
• Complexity of Humanity: He believes in portraying the "messy middle" of human experience, where individuals are both good and evil, and choices are made daily.

7. The Art of Color and Detail

• Nine Million Tulips: A significant visual element, with nine million tulips planted in varying colors.
• Color as Narrative: Color was a constant conversation, drawing inspiration from the original Wizard of Oz book's color blocks.
• Yellow Brick Road: The specific shade of yellow was meticulously chosen, with variations like neon and honey yellow considered. The lighting also affected the color.
• Green Skin: Elphaba's green skin was designed to feel like "skin, not makeup" and to contrast with the Emerald City, considering its texture and reflection.
• Rainbow Palette: The use of various colors (blue for Fiyero, purple for Madame Morrible) aimed to represent the full spectrum of the rainbow, a significant visual in The Wizard of Oz.
• Light and Truth: The film plays with the idea that while stories may suggest lies are in the light and truth in the dark, by the end, truth bursts through light, and they mix.
• Color Timing: The final color timing, done late in post-production, was crucial to ensure the initial intentions regarding color were realized.

8. A Favorite Unscripted Moment: The Closet Scene

• Intimate Finale: The "For Good" musical number, the final song of the two-movie saga, was intentionally intimate, allowing the characters to express their love for each other.
• Spontaneous Discovery: A pivotal moment occurred after the song, where Glinda and Elphaba went to a closet. This was not scripted but emerged from rehearsal.
• Emotional Release: In the closet, the characters were able to express their true, unreleased emotions of protection and love for each other.
• Risk-Taking: Chu decided to blow out a wall in the office building set to place the camera in the middle of the closet door, allowing for a visual representation of their separation and connection, mirroring their initial meeting. This was a significant production challenge.
• Embracing Human Error: Chu sees this moment, and the film's overall reliance on human instinct and error (like a slightly crooked door), as a key to its grandness and human connection, contrasting with the predictability of AI.

9. Future Projects: Crazy Rich Asians

• Series Development: Chu is working on a Crazy Rich Asians series to expand the story and serve more characters than a movie allows.
• Musical Adaptation: He is also developing a stage musical of Crazy Rich Asians.

Important Examples, Case Studies, or Real-World Applications

• Elphaba's Dignity: Cynthia Erivo's insistence on Elphaba having varied outfits, jewelry, and styled hair to convey self-respect, moving beyond the stereotypical "Wicked Witch" image.
• Glinda's Internal Struggle: Ariana Grande portraying Glinda's public persona versus her private feelings of guilt and being "crushed by this system" during the song "Couldn't Be Happier."
• The Closet Scene: The unscripted moment after "For Good" where Elphaba hides Glinda in a closet, allowing for a raw emotional release that was then incorporated into the film, including a significant set modification.
• Confetti as a Visual Spotlight: The use of frozen confetti to create a visual emphasis on Elphaba during a song, replacing a traditional spotlight.
• Color Palette of Oz: The meticulous selection of specific shades of yellow for the Yellow Brick Road and the green for Elphaba's skin, considering their interaction with light and environment.

Step-by-Step Processes, Methodologies, or Frameworks

• Filmmaking Intentionality Framework:

  1. Ask "Why Me?" and "Why Now?": Establish personal connection and thematic relevance.
  2. Identify Core Themes: Excavate the central messages from the material.
  3. Focus on Relatable Dynamics: Prioritize complex human relationships like friendship.
  4. Develop Character Depth: Ensure characters have dignity and internal lives.
  5. Collaborative Visual Storytelling: Utilize a "war room" approach with all departments to translate emotions into visuals.
  6. Music as Internal Voice: Integrate songs to express characters' inner thoughts.
  7. Nuanced Technical Execution: Employ precise sound mixing, color timing, and visual effects to enhance emotional impact.
  8. Embrace Spontaneity: Allow for unscripted moments and human instinct to shape the narrative.

• "War Room" Methodology:

  1. Gather Visuals and Concepts: Display images, costumes, and color palettes.
  2. Assign Emotional Keywords: Link specific emotions (yearning, resentment) to narrative sections.
  3. Departmental Brainstorming: Have each department (costumes, production design, etc.) propose how to visually represent the assigned emotions.
  4. Iterative Refinement: Continuously discuss and adjust visual elements to align with the emotional and narrative goals.

Key Arguments or Perspectives Presented

• The Power of Intent: Chu argues that a film's success hinges on a clear "why" and "when," not just on its visual scale.
• Emotional Truth Over Spectacle: While Wicked is a spectacle, Chu's primary focus is on conveying the emotional truth of the characters and their relationships.
• Friendship's Complexity: The argument that friendships are messy, inconsistent, and require active effort, which is a more realistic and compelling portrayal than idealized versions.
• Dignity as a Foundation for Empathy: The perspective that characters, even fantastical ones, need to be presented with dignity to earn audience empathy and investment.
• Cinema as a Space for Human Connection: Chu views cinema as a rare space for collective attention and a powerful medium to explore the complexities of being human.
• The Value of Human Imperfection: The argument that embracing human error and spontaneous moments, rather than striving for sterile perfection, leads to more resonant and relatable art.

Notable Quotes or Significant Statements

• "Honestly, it begins with intention. Like why me? For this movie and why now? For this movie?" - Jon M. Chu
• "Friendships are inconsistent, and you have to be there consistently for it. Um, and, uh, it's sacrifice. It's also forgiveness to others." - Jon M. Chu
• "The music itself is, is actually not a big, about big performance. It's actually about getting closer to a character, being their internal voice to what they say, which no other movie can do." - Jon M. Chu
• "The crowd is cheering and she's having this internal moment, but we have to perceive that. But what we wanted to do was kind of blend that together." - Jon M. Chu (discussing sound mixing for emotional nuance)
• "I think it's a little bit of both. Okay. Definitely when I'm casting, I'm looking for people who are emotionally available, who are willing to open up." - Jon M. Chu (on casting)
• "Hey, I'm not going to wear a black frock the whole time. Like, if we're going to care about her and root for this character of Elphaba and want her to be full, she has to have dignity." - Cynthia Erivo (as relayed by Jon M. Chu)
• "Spectacle with soul... I do think, um, there is people are sitting and watching in the dark and they've put their phone down. Those kind of spaces are, are very rare these days." - Jon M. Chu
• "So I think that's actually the secret sauce. That seems like the note to end on." - Jon M. Chu (referring to human error and instinct in filmmaking)

Technical Terms, Concepts, or Specialized Vocabulary

• Cinematographer: The person responsible for the visual aspects of a film, including lighting and camera work. (e.g., Alice Brooks)
• Production Design: The overall visual concept and design of a film's sets, costumes, and props.
• Choreography: The art of designing and arranging dance movements.
• Color Timing: The process of adjusting the color and contrast of a film or video to achieve a specific look and feel.
• VFX (Visual Effects): The integration of computer-generated imagery with live-action footage.
• Sound Mix/Mixing: The process of combining and balancing different audio elements (dialogue, music, sound effects) in a film.
• Resonance (in sound): The quality of a sound that is rich and full, often referring to the way a voice or instrument vibrates.
• Lens: A piece of glass or other transparent material used to focus light, crucial for camera work and visual storytelling.

Logical Connections Between Different Sections and Ideas

The summary progresses logically from the initial conceptualization of the Wicked films to the detailed execution of their visual and emotional elements.

• Intent leads to Theme: The discussion of Chu's "intention" directly informs the exploration of themes like identity and change.
• Themes inform Character: The identified themes are then applied to the development of Elphaba and Glinda, highlighting how their individual journeys embody these concepts.
• Collaborative Process for Visualizing Themes: The "war room" methodology is presented as the practical framework for translating abstract themes and emotions into concrete visual elements.
• Music as a Tool for Emotional Expression: The section on music builds upon the idea of emotional depth, explaining how songs are used to access and convey internal states, complementing the visual storytelling.
• Technical Craftsmanship Enhances Emotion: The discussion of sound mixing, VFX, and color timing demonstrates how specific technical choices are made to amplify the emotional impact of scenes and characters.
• Personal Influences Shape Philosophy: Chu's personal background and influences are linked to his "spectacle with soul" philosophy, explaining the underlying values that drive his filmmaking.
• Specific Examples Illustrate Concepts: Throughout the summary, concrete examples like the closet scene, the tulips, and the use of confetti serve to illustrate the broader concepts and methodologies discussed.
• Conclusion on Human Connection: The summary concludes by emphasizing the importance of human error and instinct as the "secret sauce" for creating relatable and impactful cinema, tying back to the initial focus on emotional accessibility.

Data, Research Findings, or Statistics Mentioned

• "20 something years": The duration the Wicked musical has been around.
• "five plus years": The amount of time Jon M. Chu has been working on the Wicked movies.
• "a minute, maybe longer": The approximate duration of the camera push-in on Ariana Grande during the "Couldn't Be Happier" scene.
• "nine million actual tulips": The number of tulips planted for the film.
• "12 million": The original planned number of tulips.

Clear Section Headings

The summary is structured with clear section headings to delineate different topics covered in the transcript.

Brief Synthesis/Conclusion of the Main Takeaways

Jon M. Chu's approach to directing the Wicked films is characterized by a deep intentionality, prioritizing emotional resonance and thematic exploration over mere spectacle. He emphasizes a collaborative "war room" methodology where all departments work in concert to translate abstract emotions into tangible visual and auditory experiences. Key to his process is the use of music as an internal voice and the meticulous crafting of visual details, from color palettes to spontaneous moments, to connect with the audience on a profound human level. Chu's personal journey and influences inform his philosophy of "spectacle with soul," advocating for films that offer both escapism and a complex, honest portrayal of the human experience, ultimately finding power in embracing human error and instinct.