German Interior Minister Alexander Dobrindt in a DW Interview

Key Concepts

• Security and Migration: Central themes of debate in Germany, with significant policy implications.
• Government Stability: Assessed as stable despite tackling difficult issues like pensions and migration.
• Security Situation: Described as "tight" but with an "abstract danger" that cannot be entirely eliminated. Increased security measures are in place for events like Christmas markets.
• Russian Threat: Identified as a significant concern, manifesting as espionage, sabotage (e.g., Baltic Sea data cables), drone sightings, and cyber attacks.
• Civil Protection and Population Protection: Massively upgraded capabilities with increased funding for organizations like the THW (Civil Relief Organization) and the Federal Office for Civil Protection and Disaster Relief. Funding is tripled for equipment, training, and personnel.
• Alternative for Germany (AfD): A far-right party whose rising popularity is linked to social polarization, migration, and fear of diminishing prosperity. The minister advocates for addressing these issues through better politics rather than banning the party.
• Migration Policy: A "tough as nails" course has been implemented, including tightened border controls, deportations, suspension of family reunifications, and rollback of fast-track naturalization. Initial asylum requests have decreased by 60%.
• European Asylum System: Emphasis on reinforcing external borders, improving asylum procedures at borders, making the Dublin procedure functional, combating secondary migration, and implementing a solidarity mechanism.
• Return Hubs: Concept discussed for third countries in Africa to process individuals with no right to asylum who cannot be returned to their countries of origin. Requires legal guardrails and partner countries.
• Ukrainian Refugees: Shift from citizen benefits to asylum seeker benefits, with increased requirements to find work and means-testing.
• Helmut Kohl: Cited as a political role model for his willingness to implement necessary reforms and demand a lot from people and the country for improvement.

Security and Government Stability

The German federal government is described as "very stable," having successfully navigated several important issues, including migration. While acknowledging that political processes involve difficult topics, the minister emphasizes a "path towards a solution" rather than obstruction, citing the pensions issue as an example.

Current Security Situation and Threats

1. General Security and Public Perception:

• Over half the German population fears attacks at Christmas markets.
• The security situation is described as "tight," but an "abstract danger" persists, meaning terrible events cannot be entirely ruled out.
• Security measures for events like Christmas markets are being intensified, though absolute security is impossible.
• Increased security measures are recognized as a financial burden but a necessary one.

2. Threat from Russia:

• Experts increasingly warn of a threat from Russia, including disinformation, sabotage, and drone sightings affecting air traffic.
• Foreign powers, including Russia, are using espionage and sabotage to destabilize Germany.
• Examples include attempts to destroy data cables in the Baltic Sea and drone sightings.
• Daily cyber attacks are detected, with intelligence suggesting some originate from Russia.
• An increased number of cyber attacks, drone sightings, and hybrid threats are expected in the coming months.

3. Civil Protection and Preparedness:

• The ministry is responsible for civil protection in emergencies.
• Civil defense, civil protection, and population protection capabilities have been "massively upgraded."
• This upgrade is funded by increased financial allocations.
• Specific budget decisions include significant strengthening of the Civil Relief Organization (THW) and tripling funding for the Federal Office for Civil Protection and Disaster Relief.
• This funding will be invested in equipment, devices, training, and personnel.

Political Landscape and the AfD

1. Statements by AfD Co-Head Tino Kopala:

• Kopala's assertion that Poland is more threatening than Russia is dismissed as "complete nonsense."
• The minister highlights Germany's close partnerships within the EU and NATO, contrasting them with Russia's "war of aggression" against Ukraine.
• He finds the attempt to portray Russia as not a problem while Poland is "outrageous" and "sickening."

2. Monitoring and Potential Ban of the AfD:

• The Federal Office for the Protection of the Constitution monitors the AfD.
• The minister believes the responsibility lies with politics to "govern the AfD out of existence," not to ban it.
• The rise in AfD's popularity is seen as an expression of social polarization, driven by issues like migration and fear of diminishing prosperity.
• Addressing social division and polarization through "better politics" is advocated as the solution.

3. Preventing AfD in Government:

• The minister rules out the AfD leading a state government with the CDU/CSU union.
• Urgent action is needed from all parties to prevent the AfD from performing as well in elections as current polls suggest.
• This involves reducing the "form of protest" that strengthens the AfD.

Migration Policy and its Impact

1. "Tough as Nails" Course on Migration:

• The minister asserts that his course on migration has been perceived as tough from day one.
• Decisions made include tightened border controls, deportations, suspension of family reunifications, and rollback of fast-track naturalization.
• These measures have led to a 60% decrease in initial asylum requests, indicating a significant decline in illegal migration.

2. European Level Cooperation:

• A new common European asylum system is crucial and strongly supported.
• There is a realization across Europe that the current system needs reform.
• A time lag exists between the intellectual understanding of policy changes and the emotional perception, requiring time for full comprehension.

3. CDU/CSU and AfD Similarities:

• The CDU/CSU union's current debate on migration, focusing on disadvantages, is noted as sounding surprisingly close to the AfD's arguments.
• This is attributed to a communication problem and the time lag in emotional perception of policy changes.
• Reorganizing migration is critical, as illegal migration and the feeling of being overwhelmed have been major triggers for radical parties.

4. Denmark as an Example:

• Denmark is cited as an example of a country that has reduced the influence of far-right parties through a "very tough migration policy."

5. Reviewing the Right to Asylum:

• The minister does not believe the individual right to asylum needs to be reviewed.
• He acknowledges a scientific debate at the European level about more practical, better, and fairer alternatives to individual asylum.
• He does not question the individual right to asylum but rather its abuse, which must be combatted.

6. Return Hubs in Africa:

• The concept of "return hubs" in third countries (specifically Africa) is discussed for individuals without a right to asylum who cannot be returned to their home countries.
• This concept requires a common European asylum system framework and legal guardrails.
• Success depends on having the right partner country and a collective effort from multiple European countries, not just one.

7. EU Regulation on Refugee Intake:

• A new EU regulation allows Germany to request that no new refugees come to Germany.
• The common European asylum system is being reworked, focusing on:
  • Reinforcing external borders and asylum procedures at borders.
  • Making the Dublin procedure functional and combating secondary migration.
  • Implementing a solidarity mechanism to ease the burden on border countries and share responsibility with internal countries like Germany.
• Germany has demonstrated high solidarity in the past and expects this to be recognized, allowing for an agreement where Germany is not required to take in additional migrants if decisions are made jointly in Europe.

8. Afghan Nationals in Pakistan:

• Approximately 2,000 Afghan nationals are in Pakistan with promises of immigration to Germany.
• The minister differentiates between those with a legally binding federal admission commitment and those without.
• Promises for those with legally binding commitments will be kept after security checks.
• For those without a commitment, support has been offered for return to Afghanistan or migration to a third country.
• Those who do not leave Pakistan by year-end risk deportation to Afghanistan and potential persecution by the Taliban.

9. Ukrainian Refugees:

• The largest group of refugees in Germany are from Ukraine.
• A shift is being made from citizen benefits to asylum seeker benefits for Ukrainian refugees.
• This change will be retroactive from April 1st.
• Asylum seeker benefits are significantly less than citizen benefits.
• Ukrainian refugees will be required to make efforts to find work, with further benefits cut if they do not.
• Applicants will be means-tested, with personal assets to be used before receiving benefits.

Political Role Model and Future Challenges

1. Helmut Kohl as a Role Model:

• Helmut Kohl, the former chancellor, is cited as a political role model for his demand for a lot from people and the country to improve their lives.
• Kohl's bravery in the early 1980s to point out the necessity of reform and implement it is highlighted as a model for today.
• Politicians need to show they can make decisions, even uncomfortable ones, as people understand what is necessary.

2. Demands for a Stable Democracy:

• The minister is unsure if imposing demands can be directly combined with maintaining democracy.
• Germany's strong democratic tradition and people's understanding of its importance will ensure it remains a democracy.
• The focus is on sustaining prosperity and ensuring the next generation is better off.
• This requires reforms to maintain stability in systems and budgets, and to keep the economy flexible and competitive.
• This challenge is being tackled alongside keeping migration under control to prevent societal division.

3. Shaping Change:

• The minister emphasizes an increased willingness to shape change rather than letting it happen or having others shape it.
• He believes Germany has historically fared best when it made its own decisions and tackled large reforms.
• The goal is to build on this success.