Extended interview: Rep. Jim Clyburn on the legacy of the first Black congressmen

Key Concepts

The First Eight: A group of eight African-American congressmen elected during Reconstruction.
Reconstruction: The period after the Civil War (1865-1877) focused on rebuilding the South and integrating formerly enslaved people into society.
Jim Crow: A system of state and local laws enacted in the Southern United States from the late 19th to the mid-20th centuries that enforced racial segregation.
Plessy v. Ferguson (1896): A Supreme Court decision that upheld the constitutionality of racial segregation under the "separate but equal" doctrine.
Brown v. Board of Education (1954): A landmark Supreme Court decision that declared state-sponsored segregation in public schools unconstitutional, overturning Plessy v. Ferguson.
Civil Rights Act of 1964: Landmark legislation that outlawed discrimination based on race, color, religion, sex, or national origin.
Voting Rights Act of 1965: Legislation that outlawed discriminatory voting practices adopted in many southern states after the Civil War.
Project 2025: A conservative initiative aimed at preparing for a potential Republican presidency.
Edgefield Plan: A historical plan by Martin Gary that is seen as a precursor to Project 2025.
DEI (Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion): Initiatives aimed at promoting diversity, equity, and inclusion in various institutions.

Congressman Clyburn's Future and Political Landscape

Congressman Jim Clyburn discusses his personal process for deciding whether to seek re-election, which he undertakes annually around the Christmas holidays with his family. He states that his decision is between himself, the voters of the sixth congressional district, and his family, and that nothing has changed in this process for him. He dismisses the notion that calls for a younger generation of leadership or older Democrats stepping aside weigh heavily on him, referencing his own late entry into politics at age 52 due to historical laws in South Carolina.

Regarding the possibility of a government shutdown in January 2026, Clyburn expresses doubt, suggesting that political actors are cautious about wielding power excessively. He believes that Democrats did not "cave" in past negotiations but rather presented issues to the American people, whose reactions in states like Virginia and New Jersey demonstrated a preference for their explained concerns.

Clyburn is optimistic about the expansion of Obamacare's expanded tax credits, believing Republicans will eventually concede on this issue, despite public noise to the contrary. He emphasizes the importance of the "quiet voter" who observes, listens, and will ultimately act in their own self-interest.

"The First Eight": A Historical Tapestry

The conversation shifts to Clyburn's book, "The First Eight," which highlights the stories of eight pioneering African-American congressmen: Harvey Kaine, Robert Brown Elliot, Robert Carlos Delarge, Alonzo Jacob Renzier, Thomas Ezekiel Miller, Joseph Hayne Rainey, Robert Smalls, and George Washington Murray.

Joseph Hayne Rainey: Identified as the very first African-American elected to Congress. It's clarified that while senators from Mississippi preceded him, they were appointed by legislators, not elected. Rainey was one of three from the group who were formerly enslaved; his father purchased his family's freedom.
Robert Smalls: Described as potentially the most consequential of the eight. He escaped from slavery.
George Washington Murray: Also formerly enslaved and the only one in the group to be emancipated.
Harvey Kaine and Robert Brown Elliot: Identified as Northerners. Kaine, from Ohio, was sent to Charleston to rebuild Emanuel AME Church. Elliot was from Massachusetts.
Robert Carlos Delarge, Alonzo Jacob Renzier, and Thomas Ezekiel Miller: These individuals were sometimes referred to by the term "mulatto," a term now unfamiliar or uncomfortable for many young Americans. Thomas E. Miller is noted as an exception; he was born white, adopted by an African-American family, and lived his life as an African-American. He attended Lincoln University (an HBCU) and the University of South Carolina Law School.

Clyburn emphasizes that these eight men represent a crucial period in American history. His own election as the first Democrat from South Carolina in 95 years links him to this group, but the significant gap highlights the setbacks that occurred. The book aims to educate readers on why this 95-year hiatus existed and to caution against repeating the mistakes of the past, particularly referencing the events of 1876.

The Disputed Election of 1876 and the End of Reconstruction

Clyburn provides a detailed account of the 1876 presidential election:

Candidates: Ohio Republican Governor Rutherford B. Hayes vs. New York Governor Samuel Tilden.
Results: Tilden won the popular vote (50.9%) but fell one electoral vote short of the necessary 185. Hayes had 165 electoral votes, with 20 in dispute across Florida, Louisiana, and South Carolina, and one in Oregon.
Resolution: A 15-member commission was formed, which voted 8-7 to award all 20 disputed electoral votes to Rutherford B. Hayes.
Consequence: This decision, coupled with Hayes's willingness to withdraw federal troops from Louisiana and South Carolina (the last two Confederate states with federal occupation), effectively ended Reconstruction.

Clyburn stresses the significance of this period, noting that three major events were decided by a single vote:

Impeachment of Andrew Johnson: The Senate failed to convict him by one vote.
1876 Election Commission Vote: The 8-7 vote to award electoral votes to Hayes.
End of Reconstruction and the Rise of Jim Crow: This was a direct consequence of Hayes becoming president and withdrawing federal troops.

He acknowledges that Reconstruction was already weakening due to white supremacist violence but asserts that the 1876 election marked its official federal end. He also points to the Supreme Court's narrowing interpretation of the 1866 Civil Rights Act, particularly through the Slaughterhouse Cases, as further contributing to the decline of Reconstruction's impact.

The Remarkable Story of Robert Smalls

Clyburn expresses bewilderment as to why there hasn't been a major feature-length film about Robert Smalls, calling him "the most consequential South Carolinian who ever lived."

Escape from Slavery: Smalls, while enslaved, orchestrated a daring escape by commandeering the Confederate ship "The Planter." He brought his family and friends aboard and successfully navigated the ship past Confederate defenses, delivering it to Union forces. He achieved this by impersonating the captain, a feat made possible by his resemblance and demeanor.
Advocacy for Black Soldiers: Just six months after his escape, Smalls met with Abraham Lincoln in Washington D.C. to advocate for the enlistment of African-American soldiers in the Union Army. This was a crucial achievement, as even Frederick Douglass had struggled to convince Lincoln on this matter. Smalls's efforts led to the authorization of 5,000 Black soldiers, which ultimately grew to 40,000.
Lincoln's Acknowledgment: Clyburn quotes Abraham Lincoln as saying, "But for the freedman, the Union would not have won that war," underscoring the vital role of Black soldiers, a role Smalls helped initiate.
Post-War Compassion: After the war, Smalls returned to his hometown and, upon learning his former owner had fallen into poverty and lost his house, purchased the house. He then took in the widow of his former owner and cared for her until her death in 1904, demonstrating extraordinary compassion.
Political Activism: Smalls was a delegate to both the 1868 Constitutional Convention, which granted significant freedoms, and the 1895 convention that sought to strip those freedoms away. He refused to sign the report of the 1895 convention, even when threatened with not being reimbursed for his expenses, stating he would walk home if necessary.

Clyburn believes Smalls's story, particularly his escape on "The Planter" through Charleston Harbor past Fort Sumter, would make for a compelling film.

The Legacy of Jim Crow and the Path to the Voting Rights Act

Clyburn explicitly states that Jim Crow is the reason for the 95-year gap between "The First Eight" and his own election. He connects this to the Supreme Court's 1896 decision in Plessy v. Ferguson, which solidified the "separate but equal" doctrine and made Jim Crow segregation legally entrenched.

The reversal of this era began with the 1954 Supreme Court decision in Brown v. Board of Education, which overturned Plessy v. Ferguson. This judicial shift spurred legislative action, leading to the passage of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and the Voting Rights Act of 1965.

Clyburn recounts his personal connection to this movement, meeting John Lewis at age 19. He highlights the dire situation in Alabama in March 1965, when only 3% of African-Americans were registered to vote, underscoring the significance of the march across the Edmund Pettus Bridge.

The Justice Department's intervention in redistricting processes, mandating that Southern states create opportunities for African-Americans to elect representatives of their choice, led to Clyburn's election in 1992. He notes that current efforts are attempting to undo these gains, drawing parallels to the post-1876 period.

Parallels Between 1876 and Post-2020 Election Attempts

Clyburn draws stark comparisons between the events following the 1876 election and those after the 2020 election:

Alternate Electors: He points to attempts to establish separate elector slates or "alternate electors" in states like Michigan, Pennsylvania, and Georgia, mirroring the disputed electoral votes of 1876. He mentions individuals convicted for these actions and the infamous phone call to find votes.
Project 2025 and the Edgefield Plan: Clyburn sees "Project 2025" as a modern iteration of Martin Gary's "Edgefield Plan," a historical strategy to undermine Black political power.
Erasure of Contributions: He cites examples like removing Jackie Robinson from Pentagon references and diminishing the contributions of the Tuskegee Airmen as attempts to erase Black history and achievements.
Attacks on Institutions: The proposed elimination of the Department of Education and the Supreme Court's redefinition of the Voting Rights Act (specifically Section 5, which requires preclearance for changes to voting laws in certain jurisdictions) are seen as direct assaults on civil rights protections.
Texas Redistricting Case: Clyburn mentions a recent federal court ruling in Texas that found redistricting efforts went beyond legal boundaries. He expresses hope that this ruling will stand but warns that if the Supreme Court overturns it, the country could revert to Jim Crow-like conditions.

Clyburn asserts, without hesitation, that history is clear and should not be argued with.

Clyburn's Legacy and Vision for America

When asked about his legacy, Clyburn hopes his tombstone will read: "He did his best to make America's greatnesses accessible and affordable for all." He believes America is a great country but emphasizes the need to ensure its benefits are available to everyone. He cites his authorship of the accessible and affordable broadband bill, now part of the infrastructure bill, as an example of this commitment. He extends this principle to housing, education, healthcare, and energy.

Explaining Democratic Voter Apathy and Media Influence

Clyburn addresses the perceived lack of motivation among Democratic voters in the 2024 election, despite the Biden administration's progressive agenda. He attributes this to a disconnect between policy and what truly impacts people's lives.

He criticizes the media's role, suggesting that some outlets have been influenced by or have amplified narratives that benefit certain political figures, including Donald Trump. He points to the Washington Post's decision to spike an endorsement of Kamala Harris as an example of this influence. He questions why institutions like colleges, universities, and law firms are seemingly embracing certain narratives, and he specifically asks, "What is wrong with DEI?"

Clyburn draws a parallel to his own experiences in the Civil Rights Movement, where he faced opposition and had to confront injustice, even when not everyone agreed. He argues that simply because some people don't agree doesn't mean one should accept it. He believes that reasonable or favorable Supreme Court decisions could help "arrest this cancer that's growing into our body politic."

The Nature of Leadership in the Democratic Party

Clyburn dismisses the idea of a single, definitive leader of the Democratic Party, comparing it to the Civil Rights Movement where figures like Martin Luther King Jr., Roy Wilkins, Whitney Young, A. Philip Randolph, and Malcolm X all played crucial, albeit different, roles. He shares that Malcolm X's autobiography and "Team of Rivals" (about Abraham Lincoln) were profoundly influential books for him. He notes that Saxon, one of Lincoln's cabinet members, was instrumental in convincing Lincoln to allow Robert Smalls to recruit Black soldiers, bringing the conversation full circle back to his book.